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Utahns Can Vote for School Choice Tuesday

By John Stossel
Next Tuesday, Utah voters go to the polls to decide if their state will become the first in the nation to offer school vouchers statewide. Referendum 1 would make all public-school kids eligible for vouchers worth from $500 to $3,000 a year, depending on family income. Parents could then use the vouchers to send their children to private schools.

What a great idea. Finally, parents will have choices that wealthy parents have always had. The resulting competition would create better private schools and even improve the government schools.

But wait. Arrayed against the vouchers are the usual opponents. They call themselves Utahns for Public Schools. They include, predictably, the Utah Education Association (the teachers union), Utah School Boards Association, Utah School Employees Union, Utah School Superintendents Association, the elementary and secondary school principals associations, and the PTA. No to vouchers! they protest. Trust us. We know what's best for your kids. (Back to Article)

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Posted by: Tim  
Oct 31, 01:05 AM
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As a Utah resident I am literally sickened by the anti-voucher campaign. Sadly, because of the millions of dollars pumped in to the anti-voucher ads by the National Teachers' Union the vote has no hope of passing even though a significant majority of the state legislature and the governor whole-heartedly endorsed the plan. The liberal unions have only their own interests at stake and have bombarded Utah residents with endless distortions and flat-out lies. Utah parents are extremely protective of their children and the unions have succeeded in scaring them out of voucher support. Our children deserve a chance at the best education possible. And parents deserve a CHOICE in that education. As long as the public education system remains socialized and tens of thousands of inept teachers are protected by self-serving unions, our children will continue to suffer in their learning. I wish everyone understood the problem as clearly as the author of this article does. Our future might be a lot brighter than it now looks.

Posted by: C.W.ROMER JR.  
Oct 31, 04:34 AM
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This story should catch the eye's and heart's of every parent in the country. I do not know who is more selfish? Is it the parents who do not give a dame or the teacher's or some other group of great thinker's. We are giving up our rights and children to a system of people dead from the neck up. The people who cry the most are not doing so because they care and love to open the mind's of our young and fill them with knowledge. They are hell bent on turning them into zombies. There are some great teachers out there but they know they can not go against the grain for if they do they will pay the price by being mocked and slanderd even have thier friend's turn away and have nothing to do with them. I hope that all people who want thier kid's to get a good education will stand up and take back what is thier's because they are not the only ones being hurt they are being robbed each payday. I never thought it could get as bad as it was in the late 70's but once again the Great thinker's in Washington went ahead and proved me wrong.

Posted by: TheTruth  
Oct 31, 06:43 AM
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It would be a shame if this fails. I remember when the Democratic party actually cared about the poor and working classes of this country. What's wrong with letting poor children go to school with the wealthier kids? I've actually had this discussion with a VERY liberal friend of mine and after a few drinks, the truth came out. Her explanation was that she pays good money for her children to go to a private school and she doesn't want those kind of kids disrupting her childrens education! I was shocked to say the least! I couldn't convince her that many of these poor children are good kids who are just like any other kids, they just need a good education like her children are getting.
I understand the teachers unions position. Maybe everyone could compromise and agree to pay the teachers at private schools union wages and that way the teachers unions wouldn't be hurt by this. If this doesn't pass, maybe we could make a law that says, All public school teachers must send their children to public schools. In some cities, up to 40% of public school teachers send their children to private schools. I wonder why? Actually, I think the truth is this; Right now the liberals control what our children are being taught. After WWII, the returning soldiers used the G.I. Bill to get education and training. They could go to just about any school they wanted. After training and schooling, many of them got good paying jobs, ( and started paying lot's of taxes). Harry Truman commented to an associate, " Look what we did! We turned them all into Republicans!" Liberals haven't forgotten this. These poor children are their future power base. Keep them down, tell them everyone is against them, and fill their heads full of mis-information. Slavery was done away with about 150 years ago, I guess liberals just haven't gotten the word yet!

Posted by: dan gaffney  
Oct 31, 07:58 AM
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I'm a big fan of John Stossel. On this topic I have some problems. If public schools are going to be competitive then they should have the same choices a private school makes.i.e., the right to choose its students. They don't.
Everyone knows it is an 80-20 world. When the government mandates that public schools must educate the bottom of the barrel they obliterate competition. The bottom 20% of student population has a dramatic effect on school performance. If any company had to bear such high costs (does GM ring a bell?) their competitive position in an industry would evaporate.
Do you know what Professional Development is? It is an attempt to reach the underacheiver in a mandated world of public education.
The article implies that a private school has better teachers. They don't. They have a system that allows them to pick and choose their factors of production. Unfair competition exists now.
John Stossel should know better. Public Schools are not playing under the same rules. To suggest competition is the answer in the environment that exists now ignores the current conditions of the marketplace.
Hey John! What do we do about the bottom 20%?

Posted by: JB  
Oct 31, 10:23 AM
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But Dan Gaffney, you don't see it: For years, private schools have bragged about the academic achievements of their students relative to public schools. And they have done so knowing full well that they had an unfair advantage. What vouchers will do is literally allow parents to put their money where the private educators' mouths have been, challenging the private schools to demonstrate if their educational methods truly are superior. In the process, it will level the field, bringing private school scores down a bit, and raising public schools achievement levels. The monopoly will be broken and both private and public educators will actually need to compete for the first time. And for those worried about the inability of public schools to compete, don't sweat it. They will be not be judged apples to apples with private schools. There will be a curve built in, taking into account some of the obstacles public schools must overcome, such as the selectivity permitted to private schools.

Posted by: John Garrett  
Oct 31, 10:41 AM
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I would suspect it is that bottom 20% whose parents will immediately take the voucher and send their kids to a charter school.

In effect, it is the 20% who most critically need this change to succeed.

'The article implies that a private school has better teachers. They don't. They have a system that allows them to pick and choose their factors of production. Unfair competition exists now. '

Interesting anecdote, it would be nice if you linked a little evidence to support this hypothesis.

Posted by: PAC  
Oct 31, 11:33 AM
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Where I live in Hilton Head, SC, we have seen consitant public school improvement over the last 10 years. The initial catalyst was the attempt to build a Charter School to help give some sense of choice to parents. The Charter School never materialized, but it acted as a motivating factor. The improvement in our schools has been largely caused by non-union teachers and administrators working within schools that are site based in their management as opposed to district run. From the top down, they have been focused on improvement and developing learning strategies for all levels of students with significant input from teachers and parents. We have created schools within schools so there is in fact real "choice" for parents within the public school system. Our school populations are now 25-30% Latino and they are effectively meeting the challenges of a changing school population and the additional needs that have to be met.

An amazing thing has happened; the morale, energy level, and desire to continue improving all keep building. Newsweek just ranked our high school in the top 500 in the nation. Parents are regularly making the choice to take their kids out of the private schools and send them to our public schools. I am not sure what vouchers would do to our area now, but they may act as the catalyst in other areas the same way the threat of the Charter School did to help initiate change in our schools.

Posted by: Jeanne60  
Oct 31, 12:41 PM
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As I parent, I wholeheartly agree with vouchers. I want to have a say in who teaches my children, what is taught to my children and have a CHRISTIAN Environment for them to learn in. The world is up in arms about so many teenage murders, we have let Atheist totally take over our children and world. We need GOD in our lives, everyday and every minute. Why do you think the children are so confused, now we are telling them that God doesn't exist; what was wrong is now right. School vouchers are just the stepping stone to getting our children back.

we as Christians did not defend our God, we just let turned the other cheek. He said acknowledge me or I will not acknowledge you. We slipped, felled and don't know how to get up.

Posted by: Rich-1  
Oct 31, 12:44 PM
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School choice is all about involvement. The major difference between public and private is not the teachers or the system but the fact that parents who send their kids to private schools expect results. When they do not get those results they do not blame teachers or the school they get involved with their kids. Parents that care, parents that expect success are the difference. Just go to a school board hearing for a public school and see are the crying that is done blaming everyone except them or the children. Everyone has to step up to the plate to succeed. Go to any private school and it is more like a community where everyone is involved from the teachers to the students to the parents. That is the reason for success.

Posted by: Israel  
Oct 31, 01:08 PM
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I would take this one step further. Let's go for national legislation to require equal educational opportunity for every child, including those who attend private and religious school. We require equal opportunity in housing, employment, travel, entertainment and most other public accomodations. Why not education?

Posted by: Slick-Willy  
Oct 31, 02:25 PM
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gaffney-

What 20% are you worried about? The lowest 20% in terms of IQ? The lowest 20% in terms of attention span? The lowest 20% in terms of involved parents? The lowest 20% in terms of economics?

We know that many rich people put their children (despite low IQ/attention span/uninvolved parents) into private schools. I've seen no evidence that the capacity of the students entering private schools is higher than of those entering public schools. The great separation is economics. Certainly, private schools turn down people for a myriad of reasons. Some private schools don't take the mentally handicapped, rowdy, etc. children. On the other hand other private schools specialize in teaching those children. However, economics is BY FAR the #1 reason students are turned down at private schools. This bill significantly diminishes that problem in Utah.

Our goal should not be to help public schools compete or to save teachers' jobs (neither of which would be hurt by this referendum). We are trying to educate the children of America. When you start from that premise, there are absolutely NO good arguments against this referendum. Your 20% claim is nonsensical.

Posted by: AmericanSteve  
Oct 31, 02:26 PM
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I thank John Stossel for staying with this topic in his columns. Public employees should never have been allowed to unionize. The conflicts of interest cannot be avoided. If the Police strike or want a big raise, (the union implies) better give it to them or people could get hurt. Fire fighters? Same thing. Police and Firefighters, as people, are the finest examples of public service and sacrifice we have, but the union is not the force. Political contributions from unions go overwhelmingly to Democratic causes and candidates, yet the men and women serving do not all share those ideals, and have no say in what the union does with thier money.

With teachers it is even worse, the people who they will hurt are your children. They will say it is you parents who are hurting your own kids because you want teachers and schools to be accountable and professional, when it would be so much easier if parents would just open their wallets and shut up. Tenure is just a ridiculous idea that would never be a part of any organization that wanted to excel. Would you take a leadership job with a company if they told you that you could not get rid of poor performers? Would you believe those poor performers if they told you, "Pay me more, and I'll do a better job." That's never been how it works in the real world.

Posted by: summus  
Oct 31, 03:17 PM
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Will the private schools have to take the same standard tests that public schools are forced to give- or will it just be assumed that the private schools are succesful?

Will the private schools have to offer education to special ed students, kids with criminal records, kids from lazy dysfunctional households, drug additcts, pregnat teenagers, etc...?

How much time during the school day will be dedicated to religious indoctrination versus the reason and logic of academics?

How much incorrect information will be fed into kids to abide by religous doctrine. I can just imagine the science classes- "God created everything- class dismissed" oh wait a minute this is Utah "Joseph Smith the failed treasure hunter and prohet created everything- class dismissed"

Posted by: Israel  
Oct 31, 06:24 PM
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summus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Will the private schools have to take the same
> standard tests that public schools are forced to
> give- or will it just be assumed that the private
> schools are succesful?
>
> Will the private schools have to offer education
> to special ed students, kids with criminal
> records, kids from lazy dysfunctional households,
> drug additcts, pregnat teenagers, etc...?
>
> How much time during the school day will be
> dedicated to religious indoctrination versus the
> reason and logic of academics?
>
> How much incorrect information will be fed into
> kids to abide by religous doctrine. I can just
> imagine the science classes- "God created
> everything- class dismissed" oh wait a minute
> this is Utah "Joseph Smith the failed treasure
> hunter and prohet created everything- class
> dismissed"

The schools will be responsible to parents, as is should be. This is now being done at many private and religious schools far more successfully than at many public schools. With regard to abuse of the system that can develop, it would be far better to deal with the enormous problems that now exist, than predict what could happen with a system based on the tried and tested principles of free enterprise and competition.

There is always the danger of abuse in any system, but this is not necessarily related to equal educational opportunity. Regardless of whether a child's education is being paid for by the state, education in a civilized society requires that children be taught to respect our laws and the rights of others. From the way our society has deteriorated under the leadership of the unions it appears that this message is not getting through.

With regard to the teaching of religion, our public schools are filled with it because religion is not restricted to only the major religions that comprise our society. Paganism is also including in this category, and a form of this is what appears to be the message many of our children are receiving.

Rather than trying to fix and control every imagined problem, we need to allow free enterprise to do its magic work, and all the problems will work their way out. The idea of compelling schools to accept special education children is a mute question because, if the money followed the child (often far more than $20,000 per year), there would be many innovative educators who would do a far better job than the 10 percent of our nation's high schools with 60 percent drop-out rates.

Posted by: Adriana  
Oct 31, 06:38 PM
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Excellent piece. Because public-school teachers work for taxpayers and tout their tireless and thankless dedication to children, we wrongly assume that they have the best interest of parents and children. Like everyone else, teachers want to protect their jobs. That's their major concern. Competition would make their jobs less secure and shine a light on public school standards. Poor standards and bad teachers wouldn't be able to hide behind the monolithic bureaucracy any more. I wish I had been given the opportunity to attend private school.

Posted by: John S.  
Oct 31, 08:10 PM
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dan gaffney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm a big fan of John Stossel. On this topic I
> have some problems. If public schools are going to
> be competitive then they should have the same
> choices a private school makes.i.e., the right to
> choose its students. They don't.
> Everyone knows it is an 80-20 world. When the
> government mandates that public schools must
> educate the bottom of the barrel they obliterate
> competition. The bottom 20% of student population
> has a dramatic effect on school performance. If
> any company had to bear such high costs (does GM
> ring a bell?) their competitive position in an
> industry would evaporate.
> Do you know what Professional Development is? It
> is an attempt to reach the underacheiver in a
> mandated world of public education.
> The article implies that a private school has
> better teachers. They don't. They have a system
> that allows them to pick and choose their factors
> of production. Unfair competition exists now.
> John Stossel should know better. Public Schools
> are not playing under the same rules. To suggest
> competition is the answer in the environment that
> exists now ignores the current conditions of the
> marketplace.
> Hey John! What do we do about the bottom 20%?

Isn't that what government is all about? Taking care of the business that the free system can't or won't do? If all that were left in the public schools were the bottom 20%. then the government schools would be doing what they should be doing - helping the disadvantaged that can't make it any other way.

As a matter of fact, the only thing that is never talked about is public schools is the "L" word - LEARNING. They're concerned with getting smart white-boards, and field trips, and football, and getting better facilities, and getting this mandate or that mandate accomplished, but never about the children learning.

I would be very happy is all EDD's spent the next then years working in coal mines. Perhaps then they might, just might, have a thought about someone but themselves.

Posted by: EyeOnTheBall  
Oct 31, 08:42 PM
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Take a look at every state budget and you will find that far too many governors are no longer the most powerful executive in the state.... When more than 50% of a budget goes to education and the governor doesn't control that budget.... you can figure it out from there.

Posted by: John Garrett  
Nov 01, 08:50 AM
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'How much time during the school day will be dedicated to religious indoctrination versus the reason and logic of academics? '

The fear of Christianity aside, how could things get much worse?

'How much time during the school day will be dedicated to religious indoctrination versus the reason and logic of academics? '

That is a laughable assertion, public school have become nothing more than indoctrination grounds for the liberal agenda. The logic of academics? What great academics are you talking about?

'If George Bush kills 9 innocent Iraq civilians on Monday and 10 innocent Iraqi civilians of Tuesday how many innocent Iraq civilians has George Bush murdered for oil?'

The people of this nation are so sick and tired of the unquestionable logic of your so called 'academics' and the excrement they constantly try to shove down student's throats. Whether you like it or not people still get to vote.

Is the prospect of some Christian filling a child's head with the 10 Commandments (as seen engraved on the Supreme Court building) so horrifying that you would choose the current arrangement that leads to so many wasted lives?

So many great scientists eventually arrive at the conclusion that there is more to the universe than absolute randomness.

While your politics apparently doesn’t grant you a similar insight I would ask you to not try to enforce your dogma of nihilism on everyone else just so you ‘feel’ better.

Posted by: PABill  
Nov 01, 09:08 AM
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I recall that in the Golden Age of Greece, pupils paid the indivdual teacher whom they thought
would provide the best education. That system produced an intellectial quantum leap in knowledge.

Posted by: Robie  
Nov 01, 11:43 AM
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Utah Voucher Vote:

The Utah Legislature voted for vouchers, the Governor signed the bill into law, the UEA and other
anti- education groups in Utah have forced this into a vote issue. In the process they gutted the context and benefits which were to go to the parents who desired to place their children in better school situations, where they couold actually be educated. The issue we are voting on has become so watered down that it is no longer recognizable as the bill passed by our legislative bodies & the Governor. I voted in advance, and I voted no simply because it has been gutted so badly. On face value it is a very good bill and would benefit thousands of children in the state, but in the present form perhaps only a few hundred, at best, would even be eligible to benefit from it.
I have read throught he bill, I have watched the lies and deceptions in advertising, and though in principal I agree very strongly with this voucher bill, I cannot support it in the form it has been reduced to. This is unfortunate as it would have been able, in the raw state in which it became law, to have benefitted both public education facilities and private.
It should never have been allowed to become a referendum item, that is what has destroyed this. It always seems that the evilist influences seem to ruin what is good for everyone else, just to satisfy selfish desires of the few.

Posted by: dan gaffney  
Nov 01, 11:49 AM
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gaffney-

What 20% are you worried about? The lowest 20% in terms of IQ? The lowest 20% in terms of attention span? The lowest 20% in terms of involved parents? The lowest 20% in terms of economics?
The 20% that are "turnips". They don't want to be there. They don't want to learn and they disrupt the class. All "turnips" have parents /guardians that are "turnips" and disrupt the learning process. Give me a class of kids of any educational ability that want to learn/or have parents that want them to learn and there would be no debate.
The 20% affect the learning of those that are at risk of being swayed by the "turnips". This is where vouchers come into play.
Why don't you citizens simply elect people that will overthrow this mess called public education. In a free competitive environment the public school teacher will prevail because most are more qualified to teach. You have it wrong if you think teachers don't want to compete. They already have jobs the private school teacher can't get because they are more qualified.
I have heard no one address our responsibility of educating the turnips. Who pays? If you say the parents of the turnips you still don't get it.
All you people want to do is run away from the system and ignore the bottom of the barrel. I guess out of sight out of mind, like Darfur.

Posted by: dan gaffney  
Nov 01, 12:09 PM
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John Garrett Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would suspect it is that bottom 20% whose
> parents will immediately take the voucher and send
> their kids to a charter school.
>
> In effect, it is the 20% who most critically need
> this change to succeed.
>
> 'The article implies that a private school has
> better teachers. They don't. They have a system
> that allows them to pick and choose their factors
> of production. Unfair competition exists now. '
>
> Interesting anecdote, it would be nice if you
> linked a little evidence to support this
> hypothesis.
It is my experience that the bottom 20
percent have parents/guardians that will not get involved. They are the lost souls. The laws mandate their education through age 16. It makes planning in any low/middle class neighborhood very difficult....and all suffer leading to conscientious parents to abandon ship through private schools.
....Any business course will back up my 80-20 ratio for productvity...it's also human nature.



































































5

Posted by: Andrew Parker  
Nov 02, 12:44 PM
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Interesting article, however, this is a local issue with local dynamics that may be difficult for an outsider (and some residents) to comprehend. While I do not agree with much of what the NEA does, I welcome the monetary support they offered to counter the millions that had been spent in favor of vouchers. Still, even without any anti-voucher advertising, I doubt that getting vouchers passed by popular vote would have been a cake walk, which is why voucher supporters were so livid when the Referendum went on the ballot.

The Utah Legislature is not a truly representative organization -- the political structure and nominating procedures here guarantee that. Given the fact that vouchers only passed the Legislature by the slimmest of margins and only after much backdoor threatening, it should have shown that there was not much political will for vouchers in this state.

[Gov. Huntsman (John Boy) signed it anyway, still warm from the printer. While it was not the only poorly thought out move he has made in his first term in office (Utah: life elevated), it may guarantee this is his last term in office. He not only angered voucher opponents, most significantly, he has angered voucher proponents by his subsequent back-peddling. Voucher people have been coming out in droves to local caucus meetings the last couple of election cycles and have gotten themselves elected as party delegates. They will, no doubt, blame him for its failure and will make every effort to kill his re-election bid in Convention.]

As for vouchers, personally, I am opposed to them. We already have school choice in Utah. You either choose to work with Public Education and try to fix its flaws, or you put your kids in private school or home school them.

Within Public Education in the State of Utah, parents have had the choice, for decades, of taking their kids to any school (space permitting) they felt might be more appropriate for their child. Recently, many charter schools have been created to provide further options for parents. (My two oldest kids attend a charter high school. Of my two younger children, twins, one goes to a gifted and talented magnet school and the other is assigned to a special education unit at another nearby school. My older children attended the local elementary school which, though a year round Title I school with a majority immigrant population in a spartan, aging building with 7 relocateable units, was one of the best schools in the District, academically.)

Opting out of public education does not obviate one's responsibility to support public education. Taxes ought not be paid with the expectation of equivalent return, nor ought we to expect a refund for services we choose not to accept. If the logic of the school voucher and tax-credit supporters was applied across the board, government would collapse. Maybe the hard core libertarians and anarchists would like that, but I don't think it would seem particularly practical for the rest of us.

In a state that is so dominated by a single religion, the separation of Church and State is a concept that is deeply entrenched, in fact, it was a requirement for statehood (to the extent that members of the Mormon church were "encouraged" to distribute themselves evenly between the Republican and Democratic parties, something that probably needs to be done again). The Utah Constitution clearly states that the State government will not support religious schools. The voucher law, if implemented, would be challenged in court and would likely be found unconstitutional.

Posted by: florida  
Nov 05, 06:21 PM
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As usual, John Stossel cherrypicks his facts to fit a preconceived notion. First, most private schools will not accept less than their usual tuition and $2,000 rarely covers tuition at accredited private school. We tried this in florida and tons of "schools" opened to accept voucher money and either provided substandard education or just closed up and kept the money. Also, will these private schools take behavior problems? Kids with disabilities? Kids whose poor parents cannot provide transportation? I doubt it. John Stossel is a partisan hack in the thrall of "edu-business," those who would privatize education to compete with public education (which probably educated Stossel?). Private prisons have not proven cost effective; private schools that would agree to accept the voucher for FULL tuition will not be cost effective either.

Posted by: florida  
Nov 05, 06:38 PM
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The private schools in Pinellas County, Florida (the good ones) will not accept vouchers. They also don't pay their teachers well; I've known many who've left for public school or just left the profession. When you send your ill-mannered, self-centered brats to school, what do you expect? These monsters can wreck a classroom and nothing much can be done as the parents will threaten to sue or worse. My former district offers programs that are the envy of the country. We have an International Baccalaurate Program that regularly siphons kids from the best private schools, but only if they qualify. We have an economics education program that my cousin has told me is better than anything offered in his upper middle class city in Georgia. We have extra tutoring for at-risk kids, fundamental programs that are strict, "back to basics" curricula, programs for fine arts education, criminal justice, a medical magnet and all done with less and less money from the state. Sure, there are problems but we don't expel them like the private schools; we get them counseling, alternative programs or even alternative schools if needed. Teachers are not the enemy; they are there every day (sometimes into the night) for the kids. We don't do it for the money; a person with the same education almost always earns more money. Teachers don't deserve the abuse dumped on us. Reserve that for legislatures that underfund education, pre-natal care for young, single women and that egotistical moron, John Stossel.

Posted by: Utah Taxpayer  
Nov 05, 09:26 PM
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Utah parents already have a choice. Parents can send their children to public charter schools, their neighborhood public school, or another public school not in their neighborhood on a special permit. Parents can send their students to a private school, just don't expect my taxes to pay for their "choice'.



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