A little point, cultural effects being the problem are supported quite easily by research, just look at the difference in more liberal european countries against conservative ones, in countries where feminism has occured, women tend to do less housework, and more men are "Househusbands" Looking at England, our slightly more liberal cousins have been noticing the trend for a while.

Therefore the argument that gender roles cannot be explained by the research and must therefore be due to genetic differences, cannot be supported. All they can argue is:

1) Americans genetics are very different from european genetics
2) Cultural/social enforcement of gender stereotypes keeps american men and women in set roles.

Much of the housework that women do is driven by their own priorities - unreasonable standards, impressing other women, personal tastes, etc. I do a lot of things around the house to help simply because these things are important to her and because I am older and semi-retired. We have two cats, not because I want them, which I largely care for. I often will clean up the house for her mid-week, not because it needs to be done, but because I would rather spend the weekends with her than have her sweeping the floors. We spend roughly the same amount of time on housework even though she has a more time-consuming job. I do not resent the time I spend doing things that don't need to be done nor do I feel guilty that she spends more time "working" than I do. We have a new kitchen and it is beautiful. There really was nothing wrong with the old kitchen. We spent a lot of time and money on it and this is something that she wanted very much. I am happy that she is happy and that because we worked on it together it was well done and will increase the value of our house. How do we count all the time I spent with her looking for the perfect slab of granite for the counter tops? Is it equally shared housework?

A few random thoughts on the statistics behind the article:

According to the study, many women spend more time doing housework than their spouses. As far as I could tell (I went to the UW website but I do not have hours to review it), the study does not identify the amount of time spent by either spouse doing their professional work. Given that men and women do make decidedly different career choices, the possiblity exists that combined hours on the job and commuting could offset the housework hours.

I am intrigued that families with a stay at home spouse only perform about 5 more hours of housework per week than those without. Does being absent from the home 40+ hours per week (80+ jointly) really only reduce the need for housework by 5 hours and do the stay at home families (presumably typically with more kids at younger ages) really only need five more hours of housework to get things done. Which brings up the question of how much housework is enough (and who gets to decide) - if 28 hours of housework is sufficient and men are doing half, are not the remaining hours just a pastime (or, perhaps, a compulsion) and not really work?

Are the nature of the jobs performed a factor? In other words do we ever, perhaps even subconciously, decide something like "I will gladly trade a weekly half hour with the cat box for 4 hours of dishwashing"?

I was going to bring up productivity during the hours worked but am not sure what to do with it.

Is the author of this article (or any of the posters) aware that the "data" for this survey relies on the perception of the hours spent rather than any actual tracking of the time on the job? Or that only about sixty percent of the families interviewed had information from the second partner - so, much of the data is based on one spouse's perception of the other's time spent on housework.

Female interviewers outnumbered male interviewers by about 4 to 1 for this survey. How might that affect the results?

My husband tends to do the outside work and I do the inside work. But, I would like to start a conversation about creating a viable third party. The Democrats have been hijacked by the far left, and the Republicans have been hijacked by the Christian right. Moderate Democrats like me and Independents have no where to go as the current third parties are also on the fringe. While I have been loyal to the Democratic party all of my life, voting for someone like Barack Obama who belonged to a church for 20 years with racist, anti-semitic and unpatriotic values, is totally unacceptable to me.

I am a proud American who supports our fight on terrorism, women's rights, and family values. I want more affordable college, good jobs at home, safe neighborhoods, better health care, a clean environment and better programs to help seniors with assisted living so they don't go bankrupt in their old age. The Republicans promote family values, but not a woman's right to choose. There's a culture war going on that has divided our nation and left no room for the moderates. I am a strong supporter of Hillary Clinton because I believe she is a moderate, but since the Democrats do not appear to want to nominate her, I will support John McCain in this election as I am not a single issue voter, and Mr. McCain has a long demonstrated record of reaching across party lines to effect real change and get things done for the common citizen. While my step-father helped to organize the "March on Washington" with Dr. King, the Obamas do not speak for me, and I will not have Nancy Pelosi, Donna Brazile and Howard Dean select a candidate for me.

The Democratic Party and the biased press has failed America. It's with this in mind that I advance the following third party platform that I hope a candidate will one day take up:

1) We support a strong America, and we are proud of America. We must promote our military that’s strong on national defense, work to reduce nuclear proliferation, and vigorously fight the war on terrorism. This includes finding a way to leave Iraq in a quick, but safe manner, taking into consideration the welfare of Iraq's citizens and the advice of our military generals.

We also must:

2) Promote Clean Air and Clean Environmental Policies with more land set aside for wildlife. We must establish strong policies that reduce global warming.

3) Promote strong energy policies that take the environment into consideration, but allow for off shore drilling and promote other alternative energy sources. We must encourage research into more fuel efficient vehicles and establish multiple fuel sources including clean coal, solar, wind, and nuclear, etc.

4) Nominate judges for the Supreme Court that will not overturn Roe v. Wade.

5) Keep the Bush tax cuts, but will look at additional tax breaks for health care, college tuition, and affordable senior assisted living. This may also include giving hospital tax breaks to expand their emergency rooms and other facilities. Larger corporations in thriving industries should pay more taxes, and small businesses should pay less.

6) Open the health plan for Congress to people who do not have health care at affordable rates. Must enact laws that prevent insurance companies from dropping health coverage and eliminating pre-existing conditions.

7) Eliminate tax breaks to firms that send jobs overseas. Will not allow jobs to be shipped overseas or the manufacturing of products that are involved in our national defense.

8) Seal our national borders immediately, reduce illegal immigration, and only after this is done, improve job programs for immigrants to work in the United States.

9) Follow the laws of the US Constitution and the Geneva Convention.

10) Be a strong supporter of Israel, and pursue peace in the Middle-East without compromising Israel's security. Must do more to promote democracy overseas including more communication and outreach programs.

11) Limit sub-prime mortgages and enact more regulations on adjustable mortgage rates. We must limit interest rates on credit cards.

12) Promote strong public educational systems.

13) Promote kid friendly values that include keeping children safe in our neighborhoods, keeping violent video games out of the hands of children, reducing pornography and domestic violence, and promoting more family friendly movies and entertainment.

14) Recognize same sex unions.

15) Rebuild our nation’s infrastructure including our roads, bridges, levees, and public transportation systems.

16) Protect our 2nd amendment rights, but also look at ways to reduce crime in our neighborhoods. Current gun laws must be enforced.

17) Look at our post high school educational system. We are not graduating enough engineers, health care professionals or scientists. Too many colleges are not offering the type of courses that will train a student for the skills they will need in today's work force. Many Americans still can not go to college either because it's not affordable or because they are not accepted when millions of students are admitted into our universities from overseas. We must use a strong educational system at home as a tool that will allow America to compete with other countries. That starts by requiring colleges to admit more Americans at in-state rates, and giving more incentives to students to enter certain careers.

18) Eliminate ear marks and unnecessary spending.

19) Encourage stem cell research and other technologies to continue the fight over illness and disease.

These issues are not in any particular priority, and I invite people to amend them. I also do not have a name for our new third party. Maybe people can send in their suggestions. I have joined the JustSayNoDeal.com coalition against Barack Obama that represents millions who believe the Democratic Party has become undemocratic. I hope you will consider joining us too. Please see more at [www.elections2008online.com]. Thank you!

First, thanks elgrabo for pointing out how insulting it is to fathers to suggest women are more hard wired to care for children then men. Nothing changed me more than having children, it was as if I discovered part of myself that I didn't know existed. I also agree with nw about not counting up time. In my case my wife has the more stressful job, and I'm sure if I counted up the time I spend it would be more than the time she spends. But the job takes so much out of her that I think ultimately I still am less worn out by overall work. It's important couples take all of this into account, juggling a modern family, where both parents work, requires real communication. [scotterb.wordpress.com]

You know in 35 years of my life I have yet to meet a single middle class MARRIED stay home dad and I have live in 9 states and worked in nearly the rest .. .red states and blue. I have met a few, but they were all either wealthy, divorced, widowed, or short term (a year or two) ... seriously Shara_K where is this mythical middle class stay home dad you know lots of ... I need to move there. Most of the women I know whose husband quit working were quickly considered deadbeats after a year or two (even if they were raising the children) and divorced as the women looked for a man who had a job. Reality outside TV and the Ivory Tower is as Robert20023 said, women expect men to work till they die OR both of them to work till they die ... women don't abide (for long) men sitting at home watching TV not doing a damn thing while they are off at work ... yet the inverse is pretty common and women find no fault with it. The world will be a better place when women quit blaming men or thinking the system is their to keep them down ... feminists do make a valid point with women earning less than men for the same work but I keep waiting for NOW to take up the touch and start demanding women do more prison time for the same crime as a man.

Seriously though Sasha_K (to recap) where is this mythical land where women all put in double shifts at the coal mine or factory coming home to a dirty house and hamburger helper (because it takes 5 minutes to make) only to find their husbands sitting around watching TV wondering when she is going to share household duties and go cook / clean / do the dishes because his day of 5 minute cooking, sitting at the public pool with his kids, and sweeping the floor once a week is so difficult.

elgrabo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I think there are
> many men who are wonderful fathers and more than
> capable of staying at home to care for the
> children. In fact, I know many men who stay at
> home and many men who don who, if given the
> option, would swap roles with their wives. And
> many women who would swap roles with their
> husbands for the opportunity to work outside the
> home. It's not about men and women, it's about
> individual choice.

Yeah, I know a lot of stay at home dads. Should they feel less manly? I think things change a lot slower in red state areas and theirein lies the disconnect. They'll get it in 10 years or so, they're always about that far behind.

I think the goal of most contemporary, relevant feminists is to stop essentializing gender roles and to elevate the appraisal of actions by women to that of men. There's a strong undercurrent in contemporary feminism specifically against women simply taking on a male role in society. Where has the author been since the 80's?

Women shouldn't be ashamed to be mothers or care for children, or even to clean their homes. But they shouldn't be forced by society to, either. There's nothing about estrogen that makes you clean, and nothing about testosterone that makes you dirty. There might be something about the biological (as well as the social) construct of womanhood that makes for more nurturing parents, but there's a wide difference between the experience of individuals that should be recognized. To the extent that domestic sphere activity is a significant part of a woman's every day experience, that sphere should be given equal consideration to the activities of men.

Of course, this is an election year, and the writer just wants to take pot shots at any kind of social liberation women make. Read a book, Kathleen Parker!

Buckkel, except for a hefty commute, you describe my wife (36 years) and I. Thanks, for letting
me see that there are other common sense couples out there.

HB

buckkel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh, but that life was easy and relaxed all the
> time. I'm married, my hubby and I both work
> full-time jobs (complete with hefty commutes), and
> we have 4 kids. We go home at the end of the day
> (and stay home on the weekends), and we get things
> done, and there is a definite division of labor,
> because it works best that way (I do the
> traditional mom/wife stuff, and he does the
> traditional dad/husband stuff, with some crossover
> here and there) - no one whines because of too
> much work. Why? We live in reality - when you
> own a home, have a yard, have kids, and have to
> work to pay for all your stuff (even if it's not
> the biggest and best stuff, but just the basic
> stuff), the tradeoff is that you work your tail
> off. I don't tally how many hours I work versus
> how many hours he works (nor does he), because it
> simply doesn't matter - we focus on showing
> appreciation for each others' efforts. What
> matters is that our house runs like a well-oiled
> machine (most of the time), we're very happy and
> our kids are very happy, and we enjoy our lives
> even if we spend a lot of it with our noses to the
> grindstone. Concentrate on enjoying the passage
> of time, spend far LESS time keeping score, choose
> happiness each day, and you'll be amazed at what
> you don't have time to grouse about.

"Common Sense" to conservatives is Ward & June Cleaver. It makes them feel all warm and fuzzy to think that nothing's really changed. The fact is Americans are a lot more aware of this inequity. All this study shows, is that thinking about a problem doesn't make it go away. Even in academic couples who, one would assume give more thought to this issue than most.

Chalking it up to genetics is likewise a cop out. I think the author was closest to the truth when she touched on the evolutionary causes of this dynamic. It was from evolution that the women found themselves subjugated as not Jane Doe, but as Mrs. John Doe. The nature of evolution is change, and change takes a long time. In the modern world duel-income partners are preferenced over single.

What we see is that in teaching our daughters and sons about equality, while at the same time showing the same patterns our parents taught us, the children learn by what we do, not what we say.

The ones who have the power to change this dynamic are men. It's up to them to break this cycle, and as a young person, I see many guys who have made the conscious decision not to pass on the trait of domestic laziness to their sons. Between these men and the traditional non-involved, remote hoarding couch potato, who do you think I'd rather date?

Natural selection at work. Even if Ward and June don't want to see it.

I think cultures change very slowly. But I feel lucky. My wife is a CPA, I'm a college professor. Her job is more stressful than mine, so I do much of the routine child care stuff like baths, putting the kids to bed, getting dinner ready. She is good at playing with them and reading with them. In summer my work load is less, so I do much more of the house work (the stress levels between are jobs are much different in the summer, so I try to keep the house clean). I don't feel there is anything we do because of gender. I don't like to garden, she loves it, so she keeps the garden. I think the only thing really gender related is that if things are heavy, I'll carry them. I also drive most of the time (by my choice). Perhaps being single until I was 36 meant I learned to take care of things so I didn't just go from my mom to my wife. Anyway, the culture is changing. Now I have to go clean the bathrooms (oh, and I blogged about this for father's day: [scotterb.wordpress.com]

By the way, having spent some time observing divorce courts, I find it interesting the attitude of couples coming in to divorce. Judges tend to be old fashioned, believers in 'divisions of responsibility.'

I've seen women coming in, lawyers apparently didn't even coach them not to say it...housewifes who do not do any work in the home. The husband complained that he works 50 hours per week, and his wife doesn't work at all.

One lady explained "I don't clean after a grown man." Judging by this particular case where animal control came in, and actually removed the couples pets....she didn't clean up after any creature, including herself.

Neither lawyer for either client was particularly concerned...no young children in this divorce case, and all of the financial stuff, in truth, is just determined by formula, not the evidence in the case.

But it was interesting the judge explaining to the woman about divisions of responsibility. She didn't expect to hear that.

You see this a lot, a lot of feminism, by the time it filters down to the masses, is just women being angry......like this woman, so angry about life, she hadn't done any work at all in her life, not even cleaning of the house.

In my particular case, I work a lot in the home, but not for any reason mentioned so far in these comments or in the article.

I work because women like to see men who work. It isn't about cleaning. It isn't about control.
I'm not a scientist, but I think its some type of comfort thing... a man who is working, is a strong man, is alpha man, is a protector.

I truly believe that. The fact is, you can have your house cleaned by a maid service, you can have your yard mowed by a service. All your laundry can be done by the laundry service.

I read an article just a few days ago, where women were encouraged to buy their husband a $2500 riding lawnmower, even though they have a postage stamp sized yard...as a way of encouraging him to work. What could be more fair than simply spending far less, and neither of you doing the yard?

It really has never been about fairness....if neither is doing any work, that is actually fair, but most men know if they take the laundry to a service the wife will say 'that doesn't count'

Why doesn't it?

This is the type of research these feminist groups will never do, and the long article supposedly about men and womens issues, asked no good questions, and had no good advice.

The reality is you need to work, because women like strong men. It doesn't have to be housework, but housework will suffice. Yard work, fixing the roof. Keep your life full of difficult projects....don't rest. Rest is not the life of a man.

Oh god, not again. I have this argument with my housewife all the time .... the simply fact is for the most part women don't want gender equality or shared responsibility. Even from the own article, lets crunch the numbers:

"The most recent figures from the University of Wisconsin's National Survey of Families and Households indicate that the average wife does 31 hours of housework a week compared to the average husband's 14."

So what this says is a guy with a housewife works about 59 hours a week (40 job, 14 home, 5 commute) while a woman who sits at home works 31 .... tell me again about how this is unfair?

Also just because this is a common fight with my wife, I actually started tracking the numbers about 4 months ago. On average I at home awake 4 hours a day M-F. During those 4 hours I do dishes, watch the kid (to give her a break), and deal with house stuff (bills and the like). In the average week I spend 4 hours a week on me. Now my wife is addicted to E so watches 3 hours of TV a day when I am at home helping her out ... she spends on average 15 hours a week on her NOT counting the time when she is watching TV when the kids are sleeping (she def isn't the clean and cook type)

So don't give me this @#$%& as my wife tries this all the time. You can't play the housework deviated share game with a housewife in the picture .. yet they all seem to believe that duties should be 50% shared at home even though they don't work ... I'm sorry but being a housewife is YOUR JOB. If we are splitting duties 50/50 then this need to be figured out based on free time after we both put in our 45 to 50 hour *work* weeks. To be honest if it was split like feminists want I have a hard time imaging there will be 14 hours of housework for the man to do a week after his housewife puts 50 hours into it (which they aren't doing via this and every other study).

Sure there is a gender inequality in work .. but its the men that get shafted and always have since modern household appliances were made. 100 years ago men were working 50 hours a week to bring home the bacon while their wives spent 50 hours raising 10 kids, churning butter, and washing clothes and dishes by hand. Here we are today still working 50 hour weeks while women are working 31 .... ja life is so damn hard for housewives.

Dandy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A little Propaganda for the blind among us . Its
> more of the right-wing fear tactics .
>
> A little Wake Up Call for the rest of us . Only
> time will tell which of us is correct .
>
>


Yeah, I'm sure common sense and real-life observation would cause a great deal of fear for you.

Poor baby...

People who live in the real world actually already know these things. It's called biology. And no amount of feminism or leftwing daydreaming can change that. Get over it.

A little Propaganda for the blind among us . Its more of the right-wing fear tactics .

A little Wake Up Call for the rest of us . Only time will tell which of us is correct .

[www.usawakeup.org]

There is nothing wrong in a gender bias in roles, and time feminists realised it.

The important thing is to value houswork & childcare as much as making money. Different but equal.

Height is also a bias.....but since most politicians are tall.....we never here anyone clamoring for height to be part of the affirmitive action.